Ep. 95 - It's Not Pain, It’s Power with Carina Devi Part 2

Debra Pascali-Bonaro: So did you listen to last week’s episode? Oh, my goodness. Carina Devi gave us the most powerful, passionate pleasurable first birth story. And I hope you’re like me. I’ve been waiting, sitting on the edge to hear how things moved forward for baby number two. She let us know that she’s only three months postpartum now, so get ready for another incredible episode. If you’d like to positively prepare for childbirth with more of our tools, resources gathered from teaching thousands of people all around the world, check out my pleasurable birth essentials classes and my private birth coaching at our orgasmicbirth.com for parents. Or if you want to become a doula and birth forward this wisdom, you can go to orgasmicbirth.com for doulas. 

Hi, I’m Debra Pascali-Bonaro, Founder and Director of Orgasmic Birth, and host of the Orgasmic Birth Podcast. 

My guest returning today is Carina Devi. She is a childbirth educator, a former doula herbalist, writer and mother of two. She Co-Founded the Mindful Mamas App supporting mother’s mental health, teaches trauma informed mindfulness at Eou. And her biggest passion is democratizing empowered birth education. 

Carina, welcome back.

Carina Devi: Thank you. So good to be here.

Debra Pascali-Bonaro: Oh, last week, oh, my goodness, I still feel the oxytocin, the tears, the incredible wisdom that your words, your connection to your body, your baby, your own birth story. We talked about your mother’s orgasmic birth. But let’s pick up now after you had your first son, there was some time, and you found yourself pregnant again and preparing for another birth to do anything different from the lessons learned in your first birth to kind of bring that into preparing for your second baby.

Carina Devi: Well, a lot of time has passed. My sons are eight years apart. I had been through a divorce. I had had a few years as a single mom. I was with a new partner. I feel like in that time, my experience and my birth continued to bestow wisdom and lessons. And what it really did was it woke me up to my power, the power of using my voice, the clarity of I’m so much stronger than I’ve ever given myself credit for. And that really carried me through some of the hardships in those years. So the wisdom and the lessons just kind of continued to unfold. So by the time I got to this next pregnancy, I kind of had this feeling of like, the feeling was like, I think I could not prepare at all, and it’s still an amazing experience. And then I would catch myself and like, is that me being cocky? Is that arrogant? And I’m gonna regret feeling that way. But there was this sense of, I know that I could not dive back into hypnobabies. Not read anything, not practice any breaths. As women, we innately have everything we need within us to have our babies. So I definitely took things a little bit differently. I wasn’t reading 12 books like I did in my first pregnancy. I wasn’t inhaling everything hypnobabies could give me. I just really leaned into the joy of being pregnant. I love being pregnant, not so much in the first three months. But it was like spring and summer time when I was in my second and early third trimester, and I was feeling like my pregnancy was following the seasons of the year. And it was so beautiful to feel myself in this relationship where there was the symbiosis between nature and my pregnancy progressing. I was also taking a herbalism certification course at the time. 

So I was out in the woods foraging, I was making medicinal teas for myself to support my pregnancy. And so there was just this fusion of how good it can be to be pregnant. And it was all joy this time. There wasn’t a challenging marriage to deal with. It was so supportive and so full of love, so sexy. I really, really rebelled in that. One thing that I did try to do was, I really wanted to block out any birth stories that really talked about pain and hardship, that really talked about how hard it can be. I kind of just wanted to have this very small bubble of only giving my energy to the types of birds that I wanted to have. I was very open to what that was. I didn’t feel super attached to having a pleasurable birth again, or having a spiritual birth again. I just felt open to whatever life was going to bring me. And I remember at one point, sitting down to write my birth vision, which was my first birth. I wrote in the most minute detail, and almost everything came true. But then I’d sit down and write it and be like, it’s not for me to choose this time. I feel like it’s just for me to experience and to receive whatever this baby has in store for me. But I did want to kind of anchor into good stories. I think we need good birth stories, because it’s so easy, especially when you’re a birth worker, to find yourself exposed to all sorts of stories that you wouldn’t necessarily want to experience yourself. 

So I’ve listened to the Orgasmic Birth Podcast, I’d sometimes go on free birth societies. I actually found it really hard outside of those few resources to find the stories I was looking for. A lot of what I would hear was women whose first birth was really challenging or traumatic, and then that kind of propelled them into making different choices the second time around or getting different support. But I didn’t want to hear that. Those stories are totally valid, of course, but I kind of wanted something that mirrored my experience. I think I was looking for where to go next? I was looking to see that reflected in the world around me. And I got really frustrated because I just couldn’t find it. So a lot of my pregnancy, I felt this anger and this frustration just kind of the state of modern maternity care in the US, the state of how hard it is for so many women to have empowered birth experiences, to have true informed consent. So this baby brought up a lot of fire in me, which was interesting. And yeah, I didn’t do too much of anything that was concrete to prepare. And this one was a little bit different too, because I ended up going to 42 weeks, which I did not expect.

Debra Pascali-Bonaro: We think often a little bit earlier, maybe. But good to hear. How are you eating, and the weight?

Carina Devi: So I kind of had it in my mind and was telling my husband, the new husband, first baby for him, to plan for anytime off until after 40 weeks. The first one was 40 weeks, four days. I’ll probably be right around there. Maybe a little earlier. And then we get there, it’s like, okay, 41 weeks. Okay, here we go. So I started to bump up against the limitations of my midwife’s license. In Oregon, she can only attend me until 43 weeks and after 41 and I think six days. I have to have two non stress tests a week. And at this point, it was a very hands off pregnancy. That’s what I’ve really liked in midwifery care. You tell me what tests you think, let me know what’s offered at this time and I’ll say yes or no. And so now that there was this kind of thumb in my experience, you have to do this, or you can’t have your midwife anymore. A brought up more of that fire and that frustration. I hated that even choosing an experience outside of the system, laws could still dictate what I did with my own body. And so I kinda traverse this line through those last couple of weeks where there was this frustration coming up. It’s a big test of faith to go that long. You hear people talking about stillbirths and all sorts of complications. Everyone wants to know,  do you want the induction tips? I’m like, No. I’m tempted, but no. I’m so grateful for my midwife. She was so great at being like, okay, we could do these things if you want. But I’m not going to offer it to you unless you really want it. So I didn’t feel like I was being pushed to induce. But I definitely got the message of like, hey, the world is watching and waiting. Let’s have that baby. I just kind of wanted to crawl off into the woods and find a little tree. Hold up until I have my baby, and then come back. I just wanted to retreat from the world. 

And yeah, it was a really big test of faith to lean into what I knew. To lean into the wisdom of my own body, trusting that my baby knows when to be born. I definitely had some times where I’m like on the evidence based birth website reading about postdates births and risks. Okay, here’s the relative risk. And here’s the absolute risk, and just trying to wrap my very hazy third trimester brain around it. I had a couple of stops and starts with this labor. It wasn’t the same progression as the first one. I’d had one day where I had been having contractions like 10 minutes apart all day, and then they stopped. And then a few days later, I have this one night where I’m up from like 1:00 to 4:00 AM with contractions coming at pretty regular intervals. And then I go to sleep, I wake up and they’re gone. So I knew that things were happening. I was just trying to remind myself, my body knows what it’s doing. My baby knows what it’s doing. And this is progress. Every contraction is progress. I don’t need to worry about it. But it was a really big test of faith to stay in that space of like, it’s all good because my intuition wasn’t ringing off any alarm bells. There was no sense of something’s off, and you should get checked out. This is just how this one is. That’s it. It’s different. And that’s okay. So that was really important to just remind myself of. 

And so I had this one night where I had been, oh, yeah, it was that night when I had been up for a few hours. I missed these sensations. I missed this feeling. There’s just something so ancestral about feeling these squeezes inside my body. It’s like getting a big bear hug in places where no one can hug the insides of your pelvic ligaments and bones. And it was so delicious. So I wake up the next morning, and I wake up to this hot trickle down my thigh. I was like, yes, finally, we’re getting somewhere. And this was at their 41 weeks and six days. So I was right there on the edge of 42 weeks. I wake up, I go check things out, I lost my mucus plug. I’m really wanting to just be in my cave. I don’t want anyone to know. I don’t want to see anybody, but I let my midwife know just in case things pick up quickly. Lost my mucus plug, water broke. I tell my husband and he’s just like, okay, I’m gonna cancel all my calls, and I’m gonna start my maternity leave. I’m like, no, don’t do that yet. I’m just kind of moving about my business in the morning, and I’m not having any contractions. I’m just kind of watching and waiting. It’s kind of weird to be in that space, because you don’t want to push things along unnecessarily. But there’s also this watching, waiting, is it going to happen the exciting day we’ve been waiting for or not. So I go take a walk and walk around, and I’m doing a little bit of the mile circuit and kind of recording some voice memos on my phone, like a little diary of what’s happening and what I’m feeling. And there’s just nothing. 

Sometimes, I could get contractions to pick up. Sometimes, I’ve used some herbs, but then they sort of dwindle off. So I was like, okay, I know that I feel watched right now. Even just my midwife who I trust completely, and my husband who I trust completely, they were the only ones who knew, and it still felt like too many eyes. So I just knew like, this isn’t gonna happen until nighttime. I just knew it. So I go about my day. I’m trying to do my best to just relax, watch some funny movies, not think about it, which is kind of impossible with your water broken. At least for me, it was. And then my husband is so tired that day, but he takes a nap. And this guy never naps. I was like, okay, he’s getting prepared. This is him. This is his body knowing he’s gonna be up all night. So he ends up going to bed super early right after dinner. I’m kind of cleaning things up and I start to feel the biggest contraction yet. Like okay, my body gets that it’s dark. Everyone’s asleep. It’s safe. We can unfurl now. 

I just kind of move around the house and I have this thought of like, I wonder when they’re going to start to pull me in. They were so mild and easy. I could talk through them and go about my business. I was like, I wonder when I’m going to be just pulled into that other world and write them. I have one of those contractions where I’ve gotta stop and lean on the counter and breathe through it. I’m so excited. So I thought, okay, I need to go to bed right now, because I think I’m gonna be up all night. I never ended up getting to sleep. I was in bed contracting. I actually found that this was so different from the first birth, but these early labor contractions were a lot more powerful. I was really having to use some of my tools. I was having some back labor which I hadn’t felt before. But you hear all the stories about like, oh, it’s so painful. I’m laying there in my bed and I’m trying to get to know these sensations, trying to figure out how I can make these early labor contracts work. How can I soften them? How can I be with them fully? And I noticed that if I smiled through the length of the contraction, there was no pain. And it wasn’t even that intense. So it’s just laying in bed, half sleeping between contractions. When it comes up, I’m forcing myself to just smile as big as I can. But it worked. It was great.

Debra Pascali-Bonaro: I have to share it. This friend of mine, yes, she is an amazing midwife in Indonesia. One time I said, what would be a short way to tell women to have an orgasmic birth? And she said, when these lips are smiling, so are the other lips. The labia. That’s when I hear you just smiling through it, it’s helping that cervix just soften and open, right?

Carina Devi: Mm hmm. Absolutely. It’s so funny. Tell the story, because I’m only three months postpartum. The pieces are kind of still being pulled together. It takes a little time for that. So if there’s some holes, or takes me a little bit to find the words, I’m like, what happened though?

Debra Pascali-Bonaro: So keep going. You’re smiling. Keep going, what’s happening next to your mind and body.

Carina Devi: So one thing that I was doing was timing my contractions with an app on my phone, which I had never done before. But in late pregnancy, my sense of time completely deteriorated. I couldn’t tell five minutes from three hours. I was just in that other world. So I was using a contraction timer. I remember my midwife, she lives about an hour away. She was like, okay, I need like an hour and a half to prepare, and get my kids ready. When they’re about five minutes apart, that’s when you should let me know so I can come. So I had no ability to track that within myself so I’m using an app. And looking back, I think being on my phone, it kind of put me into this space where it was hard to turn my brain off. It was so easy in my first labor. And this time, so much of this birth was mental, more than anything. There were lots of thoughts. What’s that breathing technique? What should I do? I kept trying to find the thing that would make these contractions feel better, or change in some way, or be more pleasurable. And I kind of got to this point where I was like, okay, this is just how they are right now. They might change, but I don’t need to try and figure them out. But still, my brain was just looping and thinking a lot. So I get to the point where my contractions are, some of them are five minutes apart, but they were so irregular. And so it was like 17 minutes, and three minutes, and 10 minutes, and 5. It was really all over the place. 

So this was about 10:00 PM. I went and woke my husband up and said, okay, it might be time to call the midwife, but I’m not really sure. Can you just hang out with me for a few minutes? Let me know what you think. And so I had a few contractions on the bed next to him and he was like, oh, it’s time. We gotta go. So he had just fallen asleep like maybe 45 minutes before he kind of shot up and started brewing some coffee. He never brews coffee in a place where a woman can smell it. We did a lot of training in that, but it was really nice to have him there. I noticed that as soon as he was awake, even if he wasn’t in the room just knowing that he was aware of what was happening, suddenly, things softened. And it was easier. I was surprised that I was experiencing back labor. I was experiencing pain. They were so irregular. I just kind of kept going in my mind like, why are they irregular? What’s happening there? I’m pretty sure I know his position. He’s not posterior. So there was just this kind of anchor in my mind that was so active and persistent throughout pretty much the whole labor, which was a really interesting thing to experience because I know so many women do have that experience. 

So my midwives get here, and she’s kind of palpating, feeling for the baby’s position, and he’s still ROA, like he had been my whole pregnancy. Maybe they’re just irregular, and that’s okay. And we’ll just keep a watchful eye, but this is fine. They don’t have to be super regular. So once she got here, things picked up pretty quickly. My whole active labor period ended up only being about four hours this time. I kept waiting for my endorphins to kick in. I kept waiting to go to that labor land, a lovely place in the sensory tapestry of all. But instead, I was like, I kept trying to find like, what’s my ritual? What’s my rhythm? How do I deal with this? And so I think I did every single comfort technique I know. I was tapping on my thigh. I was counting the length of the contraction so I knew when it would reach its peak. And then they were so irregular, it didn’t actually work. I was doing every breathing technique I know. I was on the toilet, and on hands and knees, and on the birth ball just kind of like pushing in my previous birth. I was just trying everything to relieve some of the intensity and pain. 

And I kind of got to this point where I spent a lot of time on the toilet in this birth, which is so funny because I did not want to be there in my first birth. But it was sort of my place of sitting with myself, talking to myself of like, okay, this is what we’re feeling. It’s not what we expected. It’s different from last time. But this is okay, we can do this. There’s nothing wrong about this. There’s nothing bad about this. It’s just different. I had this moment where I had to be real with myself or like, okay, this actually hurts. I really didn’t want to tell myself that it hurt. I didn’t want to admit that. And then the moment I said that out loud to myself, okay, this actually hurts. It felt incorrect. It felt like pain was too shallow of a word. And then I realized what I’m feeling is power. I am feeling power flow through my body. And that’s why it was intense. And from there, the birth took on this different tone that felt more purposeful. I heard this voice inside of me say, well, one, it’s not pain, its power. But also, this is your sacred work. It’s like going for a run and being like, oh, my gosh, I’m out of steam. And then someone sprays you down with water and gives you a drink of Gatorade. It was like, okay, I can keep going. It’s great. Let’s see what happens next. We sort through the memories a little bit.

Debra Pascali-Bonaro: Your time, because I love the words. It’s not pain, its power. Just how beautiful to reframe. You’ve done a lot, both last week, and this week. Your words of reframing what you’re experiencing is so powerful because our mind often then leads to what our body feels. So I love that thought. And it’s not pain, its power. So take us from there. You’re really reframing. You’ve got everybody there now. Your midwife, your partner, everybody. So what’s happening now?

Carina Devi: I’m just kind of in this place where I’m like, okay, this brain won’t turn off. This sensation, this intense back labor won’t go away. So we’re just gonna accept it. We’re gonna fully say yes to this feeling. And it’s not gonna last forever. It will end, and this whole thing is going to end in the most joyful moment of our lives with this beautiful baby in our arms. So whatever it takes for me to get through it, that’s what we need. So I’m kind of trying to lift the mood at this point. I put on some reggae, and I’m dancing. The environment is really lovely. I wanted almost complete darkness. I had a little salt lamp, and some candles lit. But other than that, it’s dark. It’s the middle of the night. The midwives are in the other room. I’ve got total privacy, and it’s just me and my husband there. So we’re dancing, and I started to get into the pool. But I had to keep getting out to use the bathroom. And so that kind of became my unintentional ritual, have a contraction in the pool, get out, dry off, go use the toilet, have a contraction there, come back. I really wanted to hunker down and land somewhere, but it just wasn’t in the cards. So it was just a lot of movement. I kept reminding myself because my doula brain was turned on to 100%. I think this birth is all good. All of this movement is helping your baby find those little spaces to move down and turn, and make all the movements they need to make. And then I remember having this sense of, am I in transition? These are just right on top of each other. 

I’m at this point where I need some counter pressure on my low back or a double hip squeeze. I have to have one or the other. And my husband was amazing with the double hip squeeze. And my midwife, thankfully, they could bring their skills together because she just knew the right spot to press on my low back. So she’d come in to check heart tones and see how I was doing, and she would just plant her delivery on my sacrum, and it was just instant relief. So I really needed a lot of hands-on support at this point. I’m starting to have that thought of, I don’t know if I can do this anymore. I wasn’t getting tired. I was just starting to feel, I don’t really know the word. I think there was something in me that was tired. It wasn’t my body. It wasn’t my mind. It was just there. It was something about the intensity that was kind of wearing me down. So right then of my next contraction, I’m standing with my hands on the side of the birth pool, and this was a pretty old one so I’m not leaning over too much. And at the end of the contraction, my tailbone tucks under and I feel myself push. I was like, there’s no way I’m pushing yet. I tell my midwife, I think I just pushed and like I kind of grunted with it. And she was like, we’ll see, like. Let’s watch, and we’ll find out. And then the next contraction, sure enough, there’s this huge push that my body’s doing. I was like, yes, thank goodness, I was so excited. We’re done with those labor contractions. We’re on to the next phase, we’re getting there. And I kind of had prepared myself for a long pushing phase again. Well, I think we’re about to get a baby.

Debra Pascali-Bonaro: So wonderful. We have to care, bring our baby into this baby heared. You’re telling my birth story, I need to be part of it, especially that urge to push. So take us from there.

Carina Devi: I had really prepared myself mentally for another longer pushing phase. The first one with my first baby was about an hour and 45 minutes, and so I just kind of prepared myself like, okay, we might be in for that because it was the one part of my older son’s labor that was challenging. That really required me to dig deep. I just kind of shot it in my mind. It might be just like that. And that’s okay. So one thing that I made sure to do was, even though these pushing sensations just like in the first birth felt so intense, I wanted to right away, just fully say yes to them. Embrace them, let them move through me. I knew that it wasn’t going to kill me. It wasn’t going to be too much. I could handle it. It just felt big. It felt powerful. And so at this point, I’m on my knees in the birth pool and my husband’s there right in front of me. I’m just letting this fetal ejection reflex. This powerful force just flows through me with every contraction. I had heard women talk about, I felt like I was going to split into. And I always really hated that sentiment, because it sounds so violent, in a way. Sounds so severe. But I had that experience, but it wasn’t scary or even painful, necessarily. 

It felt like I had this image of this like column of golden light piercing through my crown and coming down my central channel, and my baby was being carried on that light, but it felt as if that light was kind of funneling through my center. It was splitting me in half in the sense that it was peeling away my old self, so that this new mother of two self could emerge. Right then, I feel the endorphins kick in. I feel all the pleasure flowing through my body, and I just start to smile and moan. There’s a video of this on my instagram if anyone wants to watch this. This baby was being born, but I suddenly loved pushing, but it wasn’t even me pushing. It was just my body doing it, and I loved hearing the sounds that I was making. I think if you heard me and you didn’t know I was having a baby, you think I was having a very nice honeymoon or something. And it was just so wonderful not just to feel myself having come full circle with, oh, I actually love this experience that I really didn’t like before. And it’s not any less intense this time. I’m saying yes to it all the way. I’m not afraid of it. But also, I was feeling him move down with every single contraction. I knew this is not going to be a long, long pushing period again. And then we get to that point where I feel his head crowning, and I touch him. 

Again, one of the top sensations. I think you can feel it in your body. There’s something so sacred about being in that place with a little baby head part way out of you, you really do have a foot in each world. I told my husband to feel his head and guided his hand there. And that moment, both of us just giggling, kissing and feeling that slippery little head. It felt completely timeless. I watched the birth video back, and it only lasted about two minutes. But the moment in his birth, I replay that in my mind over and over again. That was pure heaven. And then I think the very next contraction, he came out. I did feel the ring of fire this time, which was interesting because I thought like, I just don’t feel it. Maybe I’m just elastic enough. That’s not a thing for me. No, it wasn’t there. And oh, gosh, he just came right out. But it was funny because his legs and his hips were still inside of me. I thought he was all the way out. I reached down to grab him. I look and see that it’s just the top half of him. I had this moment of like, what do I do? Which is funny cause I’ve always felt very sure of myself, and letting my body lead and following my instincts. But it was the first time I was like, do I pull him out? Do I just wait for the next contraction? I turned to my midwife and I was about to ask her, can I pull them out? Or should I wait? And I was like, wait a minute, I have instincts and I just pulled him. And he came up out of the water. He had his little hand by his face as he came out. That’s why I had probably had that back labor, those irregular contractions.

Debra Pascali-Bonaro: Beautiful coming into the world. Thank you for joining us here and sharing your story of being born. That was just so amazing, Carina, to feel your power, to really hear how much you trust your body. But how each birth took you to different places. Some people don’t realize that for the same person, it’s a different baby. It’s a different labor, a different experience. But if you had to summarize overall, what words come to you that would describe your newest son’s birth?

Carina Devi: Power. I don’t know if I can reduce it down to a single word, but there’s something about how well we are designed for this process. How we have everything within us, not just structurally and hormonally. But there’s something in the spirit of women that we can dig deep when we need to think that maybe we’ve reached the bottom of the well of our strength, or our endurance, or patience, or compassion, or whatever it is. I’m not at the bottom, it only gets deeper. And maybe it takes a little time. And maybe it takes support. But I never get to run out of strength. There’s always more to find in myself. I have found that through motherhood. All of those just continually deepen because you have to find more patients, you have to find more empathy. And so I think it really fortified my trust in myself, my belief in myself and what I’m capable of. I have my birth flags that I made up on my wall. But one of them that really stuck with me in the birth and that I still think about all the time was, the stronger my contractions become, the stronger I become. Stronger my contractions become, the stronger I become. I’ve had some tough moments in the postpartum experience where I’ve been like, the stronger my baby’s cries become, the stronger I become. The stronger my exhaustion becomes, the stronger I become. 

And so it’s kind of been this template for any challenges that I encounter. But I really feel like birth as sacred work, and pain just being power. And this experience of birth, so much of the magic is the intensity. So much of the magic is meeting those points where you think you can’t go on any longer, and then you do. I think that’s where we really forge our mother self. We forge more maturity in ourselves. I’m still uncovering that here a few months postpartum, but I almost feel like this most recent birth was even more. It had even more wisdom and lessons for me. The first one was kind of this psychedelic pleasure ride. And this one was really about fortifying my strength and ability. So yeah, both are so important. I’m so grateful for each. And now, I see why I couldn’t be attached to any particular experience for this birth because I think I just had the birth I needed to have for my own evolution.

Debra Pascali-Bonaro: Beautiful words, and such wisdom for everyone that’s preparing for a birth to be able to bring that strength. I love your words and affirmations. Because as you said, postpartum is also full of many different emotions, challenges and joys as well. Well, thank you so much for sharing both of your beautiful stories and your newest son with us. And can you share again, how people can find you, follow you and see more of your images?

Carina Devi: Yeah. You can follow me on Instagram at Birth Keepers Library. Got a little bit of his birth story, and I shared information for pregnancy, birth, postpartum, breastfeeding, kind of a whole childbearing year.

Debra Pascali-Bonaro: Thank you so much. And thank you to everyone who’s joined us, especially who listened to both of Carina’s beautiful and powerful bursts. Please tag us both. We’d love to hear from you. We really appreciate you also rating and reviewing the podcast. If you’d like to help us reach more people, every rating we get and review spreads this so we can inspire more people to positively prepare for birth and have a joyful, pleasurable, powerful and orgasmic birth. So thank you again Carina, so much. Thank you to all our viewers. We hope you’ll join us for next week’s episode of the Orgasmic Birth Podcast.